Curse

Teklord · Jul 27, 2005, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Okay. Who are you to decide what is reasonable? Voices of reason... what is so unreasonalbe about what I've said? And where are these 'textbooks' that define greifing in MMORPGs? I have yet to lower myself to 'name calling' and the like, and I will stay above that - unless I've been drinking and decide to post, but for anyone that were to truely know me this is a highly unlikely combination. I openly support the actions he took, and might have done the exact same thing in the same position and the reasons for doing so I've made abundantly clear in my previous posts.

Yes why not lock it down or delete it, after all its a discussion. Wouldn't want to have a discussion on a message forum...

Addition: If it does get locked or deleted, then so be it. I do not care so much as to keep posting if it is deemed inappropriate. However I would quote:

"I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

All I'm saying is that my I believe my stance to be right. However if others wish to just drop out and call their time an un-recoverable loss, then it shall be. However, suggesting actions such as banning accounts for this kind of response, and taking it upon oneself to determine who is the 'voice of reason' thus who is Right and Wrong, that isn't yours or anyone else's place. Again, there is no one all encompassing version of what is Right.

MasterQu · Jul 27, 2005, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

I move to have this thread locked, or preferrably deleted. It is of negative value to the community.

Why would you lock a thread like this obviously it has merit of discusion look how many people have taken there time to give there opinion and in such a short amount of time?

I do think though we need to move past the "is it good or bad action" and move on to options that can be created in game to give more ways to respond to issues like these.

Aniewiel · Jul 27, 2005, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Tell you what. Since, according to some of you, I've overstepped my bounds, I will delete each of my posts (which are amply copied in several of yours) and report myself to the rest of the mods to be banned for a day or two. Would you be happy then?

And, just curious...mods/admins aren't allowed to opine? The way a lot of this reads, apparently not.

Numa Pompilius · Jul 27, 2005, 11:38 PM // 23:38

OK, let's break this down.

First:
drSLUGfly intentionally wipes his team and blows the mission on purpose. That's griefing. It may be out of character for him, but it's still griefing. There's simply no alternative way of seeing it. The only way to get more griefy than that in GW would require simultaneously chanting racist slurs.
So the question isn't if it's griefing, the question is if drSLUGfly was JUSTIFIED in griefing the three other players because the leader didn't do as drSLUGfly wanted.
I don't think so, you, and several other, obviously do. The reason I don't think so is that misunderstandings are so common - drSLUGfly himself even says that it was all probably a misunderstanding - and because every asshat in the universe thinks he's right in being an asshat. Helll, I should know.

Secondly:
My criticism against you (Aniewiel).
Of course you're allowed to opine. However,
* You should not allow namecalling. Especially not in support of you.
* If you're going to collectively accuse those who do not condone griefing for being "sanctimonious", it is a good idea to be consistent about your own position. If you dish it out, be prepared to take some back.
Also, just for the record, I have never griefed anyone in GW.
* You're a moderator. Like Snap, you have the power. If you feel that a post or thread is bad, don't complain about it, just delete/lock.

Lioren · Jul 28, 2005, 12:15 AM // 00:15

While I can totally understand the OP's frustration, and the way he handled it is amusing in a mischevious sort of way-- what he chose to do isn't something that I can pat him on the back for, in big part because of the ethical implications, lots of which we're discussing.

I guess the main question is: What is Justice, and is Vengeance ever just?

Batman Begins said it best: "Justice is about harmony. Vengeance is about selfish desire."

Justice is really about truth as much as it is about fairness-- so much of justice is concerned with making sure that those who commit wrongs understand what they've done in additional to ensuring that they simply pay from their actions. In fact, having to pay for their actions is often the means by which the guilty understand the seriousness and harm of thier crimes. In being fairly punished, we begin to understand just what it was that we did, and just how much it must have hurt whoever it was we hurt.

Vengeance is a corruption of this desire for justice, where we appoint ourselves the judge and agent of punishment-- where we make it a point to let others know how badly we've been hurt by hurting back, perhaps in greater measure-- while we're still hot under the collar instead of appealing to real fairness and objectivity.

And while the act of vengeance might lead to some justice-- those that wrong are made to pay, either by suffering pain or by repaying the wronged-- vengeance is still primarily obsessed with satisfying oneself by one's own means. It's an inherently selfish thing, and there just isn't much room for self-absorbed selfishness in real Justice. Revenge isn't quite as interested in recompensation and/or seeing the guilty punished properly as it's interested in being able to be the agent of hurt itself. So while it might have justice partly in mind, it's also really more fixated upon self and doing harm than it is on fairness or truth.

Is griefing a mission in anger really concerned with the truth aspect of Justice-- that the mission leader would really learn the errors of his uncommunicative and grief-ish ways? I'll dare say that that's probably not the message one gives when he griefs the mission back in revenge. More than likely, the lesson would be lost on the mission leader, and more than likely, the OP knew that well enough when he decided to take matters into his own hands.

Furthermore, like many have mentioned, two additional players were affected by the actions of the OP. Yes, they were silent and by some feats of logical gymnastics are thus also complicit. But it's also possible that these players didn't know how the bonus worked, and might not have caught on to the fact that the leader seemed to be skipping the bonus altogether. And even if they were in it, is it really "justice" and "fair" for the greater time of three people to be wasted as due punishment for the wasted time of the one? Each of those three have lost more time than the OP-- the OP wasted his time up to the Bonus. The three lost their time all the way to the end. The time between the bonus and the end of the mission can't be counted as lost to the OP because he was actively using it to plot and enact his revenge. So timewise, is the fairness aspect of Justice satisfied? I remain dubious.

Now, would simply quitting the mission be taking a proverbial slap in the face without doing anything about it? One might see it that way. At the same time, spelling out why one is quitting in reasonable terms probably accomplishes the truth aspect of justice better than spiteful vengeance. It also leaves the team shorthanded, and perhaps some justice might fall out from them being unable to finish the mission due to the OP's absence.

And even if quitting would be taking things lying down and cheerfully taking a slap in the face, and we're sometimes so eager to invoke "An Eye for an Eye" in righteous-indignation, it's probably no coincidence that Jesus just happened to say something about this sort of thing--

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Uncanny. Rest of the text out of Matthew for whoever's interested.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teklord

Whatever. There is a philosophy to go along with just about any way of looking at a situation in this world. But in the end there is no all powerful "One God" way of looking at things that is completely 100% right in the eyes of everyone. And since there is no one Right, and I would believe my actions / response to be right then there would be no grounds to take extreme action such as banning ones account based on this. That would be called Discrimination against what I believe to be fair and just.

Interesting... but if there is no One Right, some God, or at least no moral objectivity we can all appeal to, then on what grounds can we assert that what we believe to be fair and just has been "discrimated against" as if it were a thing that shouldn't be done?

If there is no One Right, then there's no reason we shouldn't discriminate. In addition, all our beliefs aren't just merely as good as everyone else's, they're also as worthless and indefensible as everyone else's. Anyone who doesn't see your actions as proper or your beliefs as valid is just as correct as you are, and thus, there would be no grounds to claim that he should'nt take actions that may appear "extreme" to you but are seen as "just" and "fair" to him.

It appears that "Thou Shalt Not Discrimate." is at least One Right that you would appeal to, even while asserting that such a thing doesn't exist. But if you were indeed right about there being no One Right, we would in turn have no rights.

Aniewiel · Jul 28, 2005, 12:17 AM // 00:17

*sighs and raises the white flag* Enough, OK? Go on topic with the OP and, if there is more to say to me, please do so via PM. -I- am not the topic of discussion.

Anya · Jul 28, 2005, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrSLUGFly

it felt bad... but it was still kind of cool...

...

I felt bad... I'm not the kind of person who enjoys griefing or sabotaging. And I don't get off on revenge of this sort.

good god ... why has this thread gone on so long?

Walberto · Jul 28, 2005, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Say aye if you think silmor is sort of right, but mainly just being a wiseass and wasting his time by uselessly bitching at random ppl he doesn't even know.

hydrak · Jul 28, 2005, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walberto

Say aye if you think silmor is sort of right, but mainly just being a wiseass and wasting his time by uselessly bitching at random ppl he doesn't even know.

I don't care enough to read all of silmor's posts. But for a fact, I know that what drslugfly did is griefing, and it is wrong for anyone, particularly the mod, to support drslugfly in this thread.

I think Drslugfly knows that it is wrong to brag about griefing by starting this thread. That's why he has his feet in his mouth since the third post.

DrSLUGFly · Jul 28, 2005, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Wow... seems I've certainly stirred up some embers here. Like any other who is opposed I will attempt to justify my position. Those who have quickly added my name to your ignore list.. okay, sure.. Those who flame me for "griefing" fine, your right.

-Could have done the bonus anyway- This bonus is not particularly easy, and I had learned quite well already that there is more than one approach to the Corridor. I suspected we were being (bravely) led to the front door, since my pleas for the bonus were met only with "come"

-Ruined the game of 3 others, not one other- Only the leader and my guildie were in this mission for the mission itself, I was in it for the bonus only as was the leader's guildie

-Could have been clearing out the area- in retrospect, I realize that this was what he was doing. But in the final conflict of the area and possibly actually right before the cut scene it was hard to reason out all the factors involved. First I thought we were picking up Rurik as extra manpower to take out the Charr Flame Carriers. Then I thought we were also picking up the the Mages as extra fire power... I followed, pleaded, protested, but wouldn't leave the group on my own. Then we were in the slanted temple and ready to finish the mission.

-Could have dropped and restarted instead of wasting time- After 30 minutes to an hour of fighting our way to this point, and with 5 minutes left to either the bonus or the end of the mission I wasn't about to just drop. He wasted nearly an hour of my time by not communicating... over an hour if I count the preparations to gather the group and start the mission.

-Justice - Justice is a euphimism for revenge in any form. Yes, I openly admit it was revenge. Revenge for not doing the bonus? Certainly not. Revenge for not listening. Revenge for not being a leader while claiming the leader role. Revenge for selfishly wasting my time when I would have been willing to comprimise. Justice is a synonym for revenge, any who don't see that can't be fully aware of how power is applied, how it shifts and how it is returned to a balance.

-Felt bad but it was kind of cool - Sabotaging the mission was in no way cool. Perhaps there was a misunderstanding here. Having my own time wasted is not cool, and dwelling on revenge (past or future) is a dark trait. What was cool was merely my method of death. Kneeling on an altar and submitting to 45 seconds of punishment. The only other death that came close (but was not as cool) as this was when two of us had to die so the whole party could be ressed together and we knelt down in poison and waited around 2 minutes for the venom to work its way through us.

-slug you bad bad man!- Whatever... if my feet are in my mouth, they taste rather good. I enjoy sharing my experiences positive and negative. I'm a greifer? Don't group with me, no skin from my scrotum. Don't really know what else to say... I should have expected that in a forum such as this where so many love conflict and thirst for it that I wouldn't have gotten away with merely a few comments and then resignation to the third and fourth forum pages... I agree with most of you that griefing in any form is bad, but if I'm on a ship and being thrown needlessly overboard, I will take the others with me, the one who pushes and those who consent through innaction and lack of protest. This is justice, this is rebalancing power.

Kha · Jul 28, 2005, 04:37 AM // 04:37

You can hate me for closing an entertaining thread for some of you trollers, but enough is enough. Don't feed the fire and then complain about it in the same post.

Closed.